Monday, June 8, 2020

re:publica 2015 – Eric King: The Five Eyes secret European allies



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TRANSCRIOT



00:18

hey everyone hey doing so yes sir my
00:22

name's Eric King I'm the deputy director
00:25

of an NGO in London called privacy
00:27

international one year ago I was here
00:30

talking about the five eyes how they
00:33

were formed where they began and we ran
00:39

through after World War two seventy
00:43

years ago this spying alliance was
00:46

created and far from being separate
00:49

signals intelligence agencies the spying
00:53

agency of the UK GCHQ the spying agency
00:56

of the u.s. the NSA Australia New
01:00

Zealand and Canada have instead been
01:03

acting as one as a single force
01:06

intercepting all of our private
01:09

communications and sharing them with
01:11

each other by default they have shared
01:14

bases in Amman and in Australia they get
01:19

promoted so if you're a GCHQ officer and
01:22

you want to go and spend some time at
01:24

NSA your lunch room pass gets you into
01:27

the lunchroom at Fort Meade in the US
01:29

such is their level of integration and
01:33

their offices as a result often get
01:37

confused about who exactly they're
01:39

working for spies that work for GCHQ and
01:43

NSA have said the national product the
01:46

communications that we're intercepting
01:47

is often indistinguishable they don't
01:50

know what to come from GCHQ and what has
01:53

come from the NSA the cooperation
01:56

between the countries particularly in
01:58

SIGINT is so close that it becomes very
02:01

difficult to know who is doing what it's
02:05

just organisational mess now this is so
02:09

important because unless we understand
02:12

how our intelligence agencies work
02:14

internationally who they're cooperating
02:17

with then we cannot hold them to account
02:19

we cannot ensure that their actions are
02:22

being properly regulated by law and that
02:24

they're not playing games of
02:25

jurisdictional arbitrage playing off
02:28

each other's legal frameworks to reduce
02:31

all
02:31

our rights to the lowest common
02:33

denominator so the theme of this
02:37

conference this year is finding Europe
02:40

we've talked about the five eyes we're
02:43

now going to talk about the nine eyes
02:46

because oh how I wish there were only
02:48

five eyes so this is basically all we
02:53

know about the nine eyes it's the five
02:57

eyes plus France the Netherlands Denmark
02:59

and Norway we don't know when they were
03:03

formed we don't know what their purpose
03:06

is the only reference we have to them is
03:09

in the documents released by Edward
03:11

Snowden the intelligence officers I've
03:14

spoken to say that most of the time this
03:17

group is focused on Afghanistan and
03:19

Russia but there's massive amounts of
03:22

raw intelligence sharing going on
03:25

between them we don't have any public
03:27

framework we don't have any
03:29

acknowledgement in any treaty or in any
03:33

of the parliaments these are the kind of
03:36

issues that we're still having to unpick
03:40

but the nine eyes are not the big player
03:43

in Europe the 14 eyes are the big player
03:48

in Europe also known as signals seniors
03:52

Europe or sickened seniors Europe this
03:55

is the five eyes plus France Netherlands
03:58

Denmark Norway Sweden Italy Spain
04:01

Belgium and Germany now we know a tiny
04:05

bit more and when I say a tiny bit I
04:07

mean I'm gonna tell you everything I
04:08

know and I can only tell you about 30
04:11

seconds worth they were formed in 1982
04:15

and that's it that's all we know we have
04:21

one reference found about them in every
04:24

single document that I've read and we
04:27

have a small library at the NGO I work
04:29

out privacy international which is just
04:31

full of every single book about
04:32

intelligence agencies their history
04:34

autobiographies of offices everything we
04:37

really nerd out about this stuff and
04:38

there isn't a single reference only one
04:41

has been found and it's here which says
04:44

that there's a real
04:45

general database system in Europe where
04:48

the second organizations of NSA B and D
04:51

GCHQ DGSE in France Italian etc etc
04:55

share raw data so again this is the
05:00

existence of another signals
05:02

intelligence sharing framework where
05:04

they're sharing massive amounts of raw
05:07

private communications that each one of
05:09

us send and we know almost nothing about
05:12

them but there's more second scene is
05:21

Europe is the closest group of those
05:23

tied to the five eyes but many many more
05:26

intelligence agencies across Europe
05:28

cooperate with the five eyes and here
05:31

we've added Austria Czech Republic
05:33

Croatia Poland and so all of a sudden
05:37

you can see that most of Europe is
05:40

cooperating in some way with NSA in some
05:44

way with GCHQ and this is a bigger
05:48

problem than just Europe we have the
05:50

similar thing here this was signal
05:52

senior's Europe we also have signal
05:54

seniors Pacific as well so how close are
05:58

these relationships well it's important
06:01

to say that when you enter into a
06:03

third-party relationship and that's what
06:05

these things are called this isn't a
06:07

trivial exercise this is a Declassified
06:11

document from the an internal NSA
06:13

quarterly called Cryptologic quarterly
06:16

and it talks about how obtaining
06:21

material and instigating these
06:23

relationships is a very very significant
06:26

task it requires staff coordination
06:28

material handers in some circumstances
06:32

they choose not to enter in
06:33

relationships because the NSA is just
06:35

not getting good value for money when
06:38

you enter these things there's a big
06:39

quid pro quo you really have to be
06:42

exchanging something for something else
06:44

right this isn't a one-way flow more
06:49

recently there was a document disclosed
06:51

by Edward Snowden that gave us a bit
06:52

more information about how the NSA
06:55

thinks about these third-party
06:56

relationships
06:59

and they said here that they form these
07:01

when the secant exchangers have
07:03

increased in volume and complexity or
07:06

you need rapid direct exchange of
07:08

information the NSA says that in
07:12

exchange for providing the third party
07:14

so this is BND or similar we provide
07:17

them unique accesses with technical
07:20

solutions and/or access to related
07:23

technology so here the nd has the
07:26

geographical location the access to big
07:29

undersea fiber-optic cables that are
07:31

coming in and out of the country NSA one
07:33

a part of that GCHQ want a part of that
07:36

and so they provide them with the
07:37

equipment they provide them with the
07:39

software in exchange for them getting
07:41

some of that information back now NSA
07:45

does it just for the information but
07:47

also NSA will go further it might be
07:51

willing to share advanced techniques in
07:53

return for that partners willingness to
07:55

do something politically risky now
08:02

Edward Snowden's told us about all of
08:04

this and he when he was presenting to
08:06

the European Parliament he explains that
08:08

it goes much deeper than this he talked
08:13

about something called the Foreign
08:14

Affairs Directorate at the National
08:16

Security Agency and here's how he
08:20

explained what it does one of the
08:22

foremost activities of the Foreign
08:23

Affairs Division is to pressure or
08:26

incentivize EU Member States to change
08:29

their laws to enable mass surveillance
08:33

lawyers from the NSA as well as the UK
08:37

GCHQ worked very hard to search for
08:40

loopholes in laws and constitutional
08:43

protections that they can use to justify
08:45

indiscriminate dragnet surveillance
08:47

operations in recent public memory we've
08:51

seen these legal guidance operations
08:53

occur in Sweden and the Netherlands so
08:59

here NSA is saying we want access to
09:02

your cables we want access to the
09:04

information you've got and you're not
09:06

spying on enough people so we're going
09:08

to come and we're going to pressure you
09:10

and encourage you
09:12

to change your laws or work out legal
09:15

loopholes that you can exploit to make
09:17

yourselves feel better than what you're
09:18

doing is constitutionally in human
09:20

rights compliant this is a map of the
09:31

undersea cables that flow in and out of
09:34

Europe and you can see just how many the
09:38

second partners that we've talked about
09:39

have access to Snowden said that when
09:46

you start getting these new restrictions
09:49

in place once you've changed the law in
09:52

these countries the next thing that NSA
09:54

do once they've successfully subverted
09:57

or helped repeal legal restrictions
09:59

against unconstitutional mass
10:01

surveillance it encourages them to
10:03

perform access operations these are the
10:06

operations to gain access to bulk
10:08

communications of all major
10:10

telecommunications providers in the
10:12

jurisdiction this is one of the programs
10:18

that we learned about it's called
10:19

rampart and this is doing exactly what
10:22

Edward Snowden has described here here
10:24

country X one of the second senior
10:27

Europe partners has access to an
10:29

undersea fiber-optic cable they tap it
10:32

the NSA or GCHQ has provided the
10:36

technology for them to do that and you
10:38

can see here they then get a copy of it
10:40

while it's been processed domestically
10:43

in 2011 the NSA spent 91 million on
10:49

encouraging these kinds of operations in
10:51

these partner countries there's now 13
10:55

sites doing this kind of work around the
10:58

world
10:58

the locations we're still unclear of but
11:01

we can begin to guess at what some of
11:03

them are one of them is almost certainly
11:07

Germany just yesterday we found out the
11:11

day before yesterday we found out a new
11:15

cooperation between the BND
11:17

and GCHQ and here in very very clear
11:20

terms it says that the British Secret
11:23

Service GCHQ offered the BND
11:25

advanced acquisition and processing
11:26

systems if Germany were tap into the
11:29

transit data lines and exchange the raw
11:32

data back with GCHQ this isn't just in
11:38

Germany we've had exactly the same thing
11:40

in Denmark which is also thought to be
11:42

another rampart a country here in a
11:47

secret document that was released by
11:48

Snowden it said that they wanted to
11:51

remind the Danes of the long term
11:53

relationship looking at cable accesses
11:58

now in the Netherlands we have the same
12:02

thing now the Netherlands is an
12:04

interesting legal circumstance because
12:07

they can't do large bulk interception of
12:11

cables the law prohibits that the only
12:14

thing that they can do in bulk is
12:16

something that comes from the sky from
12:17

satellites so anything that isn't cable
12:20

bound is okay but if it's through a
12:22

cable the Netherlands the Dutch are not
12:25

allowed to look at it now GCHQ has not
12:28

been very happy about this and so as
12:30

part of their operation from an internal
12:33

GCHQ document we found out that GCHQ
12:35

said they have some legislative issues
12:38

that they need to work through before
12:40

their legal environment would allow them
12:42

to operate in the way that GCHQ does we
12:46

are providing legal advice on how we
12:48

have tackled some of these issues to
12:49

Dutch lawyers now here's one of the
12:57

questions that I find really interesting
12:58

about intelligence sharing so the Dutch
13:01

aren't allowed to tap undersea
13:02

fiber-optic cables okay but GCHQ are so
13:08

can the Dutch receive in bulk
13:10

information that's come from a source
13:13

the undersea cables that they're not
13:15

allowed to get unfortunately yes the
13:21

Oversight Committee looked at this and
13:23

they said that if they're not going to
13:25

look at the legality of where the
13:27

information comes from
13:28

despite the fact that they've admitted
13:31

that they are receiving data in bulk
13:33

from foreign partners and this is the
13:37

problem with intelligent sharing it
13:38

creates this race to the bottom where
13:40

the lowest protections that are offered
13:43

in a country are the ones that are used
13:45

and explained it's the same in Sweden
13:50

now Sweden's had a particularly close
13:52

relationship with the NSA stretching
13:54

back 50 years but the five eyes had a
13:57

fight amongst themselves eight years ago
13:59

previously GCHQ was the lead agency with
14:03

with with Sweden and anything dealing
14:06

with communications interception it was
14:08

a GCHQ lead NSA had the lead on
14:10

electronic interception Elland they
14:15

renegotiated this but what they had to
14:18

promise each other and this is what this
14:19

document says is that they needed to
14:20

keep each other informed of what they
14:22

were doing with the with the FR a and
14:25

they must always exchange all
14:28

information that comes through and in
14:32

2011 the FR a provided new access to the
14:36

NSA on the undersea fiber optic cable
14:39

interception that's taking place in
14:41

sweden in spain it's unclear just how
14:47

far the CNI the Center for national
14:49

intelligence is going but documents have
14:51

told us that GCHQ are working with them
14:54

on IP focused interception in France
15:00

it's a similar story dgse they're also
15:03

according to leaked documents GCHQ has
15:06

says that they have they've been very
15:09

keen to provide presentations on their
15:11

work which included cipher detection in
15:13

high-speed bearers high-speed bearers is
15:16

spook lingo for undersea fibre optic
15:20

cables
15:24

and so we have this system where
15:26

different states are now passing laws
15:30

allowing themselves to do mass
15:32

surveillance they're being encouraged
15:35

and helped to do so by GCHQ and by NSA
15:38

who are providing the the the legal
15:40

framework and passing them on the back
15:42

allowing them to feel good about what
15:43

they're doing but the state still feel
15:47

that they need to protect their own
15:49

citizens of course and so what happens
15:51

is that this all gets negotiated out so
15:54

Britain says to NSA okay we're gonna tap
15:56

these cables you can have a copy but you
15:58

can't look for Brits okay you can't look
16:01

for Brits Germany says the same thing to
16:04

NSA okay we'll let you tap the cables
16:06

we'll give you a copy we'll take a copy
16:08

as well but and I say you can't look for
16:10

Germans same thing they say in Sweden
16:14

same thing they say in the Netherlands
16:16

and of course that doesn't get us very
16:20

far it means for one that my
16:24

communication can still be intercepted
16:26

by any of the other intelligence
16:29

agencies in Europe who owe me no
16:31

obligations whatsoever only GCHQ at the
16:34

moment or even attempting to provide me
16:37

with any obligations and of course once
16:40

that interception has taken place and it
16:42

all goes into the same pot that first
16:45

negotiation is is useless anyway and
16:48

Snowden told us about this he said the
16:51

result of this is a European Bazaar
16:53

where EU member states like Denmark may
16:56

give the NSA access to a tapping centre
16:59

on the unenforceable condition that NSA
17:02

doesn't search it for danes and germany
17:04

may give the NSA access to another on
17:06

the condition it doesn't search for
17:08

Germans yet the - tapping centres might
17:11

be on the - points but on exactly the
17:13

same cable so NSA simply captures the
17:16

communications of the German citizens
17:18

when they're going through Denmark and
17:20

the Danish citizens as they go through
17:23

Germany
17:24

all the while no none of the legal
17:28

frameworks that they've set some up
17:29

amongst themselves have been broken
17:31

every state can put their hands on the
17:34

heart and say we're protecting you our
17:35

citizens we've negotiated strong again
17:38

these big intelligence agencies don't
17:40

you worry and everyone gets to feel very
17:43

very proud of themselves and so this is
17:49

all being justified under these very
17:52

very broad legal frameworks there's only
17:56

four states that have really actively
17:59

legislated for strategic surveillance
18:02

although we can add France to this list
18:04

with the new law that came through
18:05

yesterday
18:07

all of them hint at the idea that what
18:11

you're spying on are foreigners we're
18:13

looking outside our borders and as a
18:15

result we don't owe them any protections
18:18

and when you look through the
18:20

legislation that's what you find there's
18:22

not a single law in Europe that offers
18:24

any protections when you intercept the
18:27

communications for people not inside
18:29

your jurisdiction and when you receive
18:37

information or share information
18:39

the laws treat it the laws treated in a
18:45

very peculiar way many of these laws
18:48

were created and drafted as though
18:50

intelligent sharing was me having a PDF
18:53

document that I keep in a manila
18:55

envelope and that I passed to you that's
18:57

how they're constructed and when you see
18:59

the debates in some of the countries
19:00

when their laws have been passed that's
19:02

what was thought of about intelligence
19:05

sharing that it was singular bits of
19:06

refined information and that isn't what
19:09

intelligent sharing is now it isn't what
19:12

happens between Sigyn signals
19:14

intelligence agencies it's billions of
19:16

Records being shared every single day
19:19

amongst these states our laws are not
19:23

taking this into account they're not
19:25

reflecting this and we're losing for it
19:27

as a result so what have we been doing
19:31

well we've been trying to get access to
19:34

these arrangements so we asked GCHQ fit
19:38

a copy of them and we asked them for a
19:41

copy of the five ice age arrangement and
19:44

we also asked them a copy of their
19:46

canteen menu they said they couldn't
19:50

provide us both a copy of the
19:52

five eyes arrangement or their canteen
19:54

menu for national security so we filed
19:59

thank you
20:03

and so we file to the European Court of
20:07

Human Rights demanding that they provide
20:10

us with a copy of their canteen menu and
20:12

a copy of the five eyes arrangement now
20:18

these things are so important because
20:20

it's how the Intelligence Sharing works
20:22

that underpins how this whole system can
20:25

be understood and how the loopholes are
20:27

exploited that infringe all of our
20:29

fundamental rights we sued another we've
20:32

took another case against GCHQ and in
20:34

the course of our litigation we forced
20:37

them to disclose for the first time and
20:39

a description of how the Intelligence
20:43

Sharing works this is it
20:44

this is all we got they had a secret
20:46

hearing we're just the tribunal and the
20:49

government got to talk amongst
20:50

themselves
20:51

we weren't even told the date when this
20:53

was taking part but we forced and we
20:55

managed to get a hold of this and what
20:58

we found is that GCHQ are being very
21:01

very clever as they are in how they read
21:04

the law our politicians tell us our
21:06

agencies don't intentionally circumvent
21:09

the law well that's true so long as you
21:13

have a very particular understanding of
21:15

what circumvention means and here we
21:18

find out that they don't consider GCHQ
21:22

is intentionally circumventing the law
21:24

when they couldn't technically get the
21:28

information any other way and so GCHQ
21:34

would argue that it could not
21:35

technically intercept all communications
21:38

going in and out of the u.s. so it's not
21:42

a circumvention of the law for them to
21:44

be able to receive all of that
21:45

information without a warrant this is
21:49

how they're justifying it this is how
21:51

they're getting away with it well they
21:55

also told the court is that when they
21:58

share information between agencies there
22:01

are have strong internal safeguards
22:03

underpinning how it all works
22:06

now we didn't find out what they were
22:07

the court wouldn't tell us but a few
22:10

weeks later more documents were released
22:12

and we got an a bit of a hint of what
22:14

some of these things could be this is a
22:18

document dealing with GCSB who are the
22:20

New Zealand's Intelligence Agency and
22:22

it's talking about what happens when the
22:25

US wants to get access to the raw
22:27

intercepted data that GCSB have and they
22:31

talk about the strong internal
22:32

safeguards that our own place first an
22:36

analyst needs to log into a system
22:38

called I learn it then needs to take
22:41

select a PowerPoint presentation called
22:43

New Zealand s ID seven it then reads the
22:47

presentation and then they have to take
22:50

a multiple-choice open book test if they
22:56

feel that they've passed the test
23:00

they then copy and paste the results
23:02

into a Word document
23:05

that's it that's the strong internal
23:10

safeguards that they have to ensure that
23:12

the analysts in each country are
23:14

respecting the laws of the other
23:16

stations a self-assess open book test
23:21

where you copy and paste the answers
23:23

into a Word document this is the biggest
23:26

spying alliance that's ever been created
23:29

and this is the legal system that is
23:31

protecting us I couldn't believe it when
23:35

I saw this I genuinely thought that they
23:37

would do better how wrong I was
23:41

so we sue GCHQ and we lost on a lot of
23:46

points on each one of those points we've
23:48

lost we've appealed to the European
23:50

Court of Human Rights but we won on one
23:52

point they said that in the course of
23:56

our suing GCHQ and they had to reveal
23:59

this information but it was only because
24:02

this information was revealed that it
24:05

was now legal but until this information
24:08

was revealed it was illegal so the court
24:12

said that all intelligent sharing from
24:15

NSA to GCHQ for the last 70 years
24:19

was unlawful every bit of information
24:22

the hundred and twelve billion text
24:25

messages that are exchanged every single
24:26

day the 98 million records from
24:29

geolocation shared to GCHQ every single
24:32

day completely unlawful and we're making
24:36

good use of this because it's been
24:39

declared unlawful we think that you
24:41

every single person in here has a right
24:44

to find out whether your communications
24:46

were part of those unlawfully shared
24:48

whether your fundamental rights were
24:51

breached and so we've set up a platform
24:54

where you can enter in some details and
24:56

we're going to assist you in completing
24:59

forms that you can send to the tribunal
25:01

where they have an obligation to tell
25:04

you if your communications were part of
25:07

those unlawfully shared so please please
25:10

please if you haven't already done it go
25:11

to privacy international art org forward
25:13

slash illegal spying and you can sign up
25:15

to find out whether your communications
25:18

were part of those illegally shared from
25:20

NSA to GCHQ one of the other points that
25:26

we lost to the tribunal was that we were
25:30

trying to argue that GCHQ oh you
25:32

assuming well we're all outside the UK
25:35

and so now I've lost my rights
25:37

GCHQ don't treat my communications with
25:40

any additional safeguards so every
25:42

single one of us here we were saying
25:43

should be treated equally as whether and
25:46

as if you're in the UK the court didn't
25:51

like that the court didn't like that but
25:55

the reason that they gave for why they
25:56

weren't finding in our favor is because
25:59

the number of people that they'd need to
26:01

get individual warrants for would be too
26:04

large they say that they can't offer
26:08

every single person here the same
26:09

protections as those inside the UK
26:11

because they're spying on too many
26:13

people this is what the court found
26:16

persuasive
26:20

now we're talking about all of this
26:24

because our intelligence agencies are
26:27

there outpacing us they are finding
26:31

loopholes and they're staying one step
26:34

ahead
26:35

they're staying one step ahead even more
26:36

of our politicians when Nicky Hager an
26:39

investigative journalist wrote his book
26:41

about GCSB he said he got David Longley
26:45

who's the who was a New Zealand prime
26:48

minister very well-respected and then
26:51

the ex New Zealand Prime Minister said
26:53

it was until he read this book about the
26:57

New Zealand intelligence agencies that
26:59

he had any idea that New Zealand had
27:02

been committed to an international
27:04

integrated electronic spying Network he
27:07

didn't know he said it's an outrage that
27:11

him and other ministers were told so
27:13

little and raises the question of who
27:15

they alternate Lee saw themselves
27:17

answerable now a leaked document has
27:24

said that NSA are feeling quite
27:25

comfortable with the situation that
27:27

they're in they're saying for a variety
27:30

of reasons our intelligence
27:31

relationships are rarely disrupted by
27:34

foreign political perpetration x'
27:35

international or dismiss domestic and
27:38

they explained in this document that in
27:41

many of the foreign partners capitals
27:43

very few senior officials outside of the
27:45

intelligence apparatus even know about
27:48

any signals intelligence connection to
27:50

the US at all the new NSA commander has
27:57

gone a bit further and he said clearly
27:59

there are some nations that have been
28:01

very vocal very visible in their
28:03

frustration and their unhappiness but we
28:05

have a level of capability in reach that
28:08

few if any can replicate the value that
28:11

NSA provides is almost irreplaceable
28:15

they know that they're the big brother
28:18

in the room they know that they're the
28:19

one pushing for mass surveillance in all
28:22

these states around the world
28:23

forcing countries to weaken their
28:25

domestic protections and creating this
28:27

system where we're in a global race to
28:30

the bottom where people are trying to
28:32

hold them accountable they're putting
28:34

pressure
28:34

they're saying no you can't find out
28:36

this information and I say this is what
28:39

we now need to do we need to expose
28:41

these relationships we need to shine a
28:43

light on how these organizations work
28:46

together in our courts and in our
28:48

parliaments so that we can bring our
28:50

intelligence agencies once and for all
28:52

under the rule of law thank you very
28:56

much
29:10

thanks it thanks Eric yes Oh already and
29:13

happy hey I really enjoyed your talk and
29:19

I like the work that you do I have one
29:22

question and I mean it with all due
29:23

respect but it won't sound like that I'm
29:26

sorry in advance but how can you believe
29:31

the that you said about the law
29:33

protecting us when it is so clear that
29:35

for the entire time we've had liberal
29:37

democracies intelligence communities
29:39

have crept up and circumvented the law
29:42

isn't it the case that law alone is
29:44

simply insufficient to prevent these
29:46

people from doing these things if they
29:48

cared at all about the law they
29:50

wouldn't be stripping people of their
29:52

citizenship and drone striking them as
29:54

Theresa May does with the GCHQ
29:56

intelligence information so why do we
29:59

want a legal solution I mean how can the
30:04

law solve this it hasn't solved us
30:05

that's insanity to continue to try to
30:07

use the law so what is the actual thing
30:10

that we can actually do so I'm an
30:13

optimist Mattila
30:15

hi I agree the law doesn't solve the
30:19

world's problems but I think it's a
30:21

crucial part of it I think that it's one
30:24

of the better ways that we can use to
30:26

set what our values mean to our agencies
30:28

and ultimately I feel that we need to
30:32

convince the agencies to change we we
30:36

need them to change their system and not
30:39

want to keep exploiting it
30:41

now I don't think this is gonna happen
30:43

by winning three legal cases it's gonna
30:45

take an entirely a huge shift in how we
30:48

all think about it how our governments
30:51

work how we oversee agencies what their
30:54

role should be in the first place should
30:56

they even exist as we're currently
30:58

understanding and thinking of them we're
31:00

a long long way off that but without the
31:03

law then I see us in a battle where they
31:07

have a lot more power and I want
31:10

technology to play a big role in that
31:12

and that's why everything we do is
31:14

encrypted and everything that you do
31:16

should always of course always be
31:18

encrypted as well but we need both and
31:21

that's why I sue GCHQ that's why
31:24

we fight in the courts to use other
31:26

tools to also help protect each and
31:28

every one of us okay if you if you have
31:39

any more questions he'll be around after
31:42

you can find a drink

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