with transcript beginning at 12th minute
...
Kissinger uh certainly uh played a key
role in enabling this genocide habit in
2016 during an event at the LBJ Library
Henry Kissinger was asked to respond to
those who call him a war criminal
should not be thrown around in the
domestic debate it's a shameful it's a
reflection on the people who use it
as Henry Kissinger turns 100 years old
on Saturday in addition to Nick terse
who's written this astounding Series in
The Intercept headlined blood on his
hands we're joined by the Pulitzer
prize-winning historian Greg Grandin
author of the book Kissinger's Shadow
the Long Reach of America's most
controversial Statesman
Greg's latest article is headlined Henry
Kissinger a war criminal still at large
at 100. can you take off from where Nick
terse left off Greg Grandin and tell us
how though so many have come under a
microscope like Nixon and his whole
group in the White House
Kissinger somehow escaped this by The
Establishment media though Independent
Media has long been fiercely critical of
him tell us Kissinger's full story Greg
well it would take a lot more time than
we have to tell kissy just full story is
turning on videos old uh I think that
what's what's interesting is that I I
mean consider is a war criminal but
there are lots of war criminals I mean
the people who conducted the as the as
Jeff sacks talked about the Iraq war or
you know can be held culpable for the
destruction of a of a country in a legal
War what's what's what's interesting
is that in some ways the crimes are
ongoing I mean you know there's many
many unexploded ordinances in in Laos in
Cambodia that are still killing people
so the the crimes well not of the past
but they're the present that said I
think that the best way to think about
Kissinger isn't necessarily as a war
criminal I think that in some ways that
shuts down debate Kissinger as a
personality is so oversized the eclipses
his context I think Kissinger is
Kissinger's life actually has a lot to
teach us about how we got to the point
where we are that in a way that that
that again Jeff Sachs talked about this
that this this multi-fronted
never-ending endless war and
military-industrial complex
Cambodia the bombing of Cambodia was
done in secret for five years it was a
covert operation
people know that but I I don't think it
was mentioned and and the reason it had
to be covert was because it was illegal
it was illegal to bomb we weren't we
weren't at war with with Cambodia it
wasn't uh it wasn't a um it wasn't a
country that the United States had had
had was had declared war on or was that
war with
um and and the the reasons why the
excuses that Kissinger has given for a
five-year-long bombing campaign that
that caused enormous damage including
bringing to power the most
eliminationist extremist uh Cadre within
the camera Rouge and leading to the
genocide was that it had it was to
eliminate safe havens it was an act of
self-defense this is now
take it as a common practice this is
basically fundamentally what the entire
U.S war on terror is authorized to do to
go into any country and drone and bomb
and conduct military operations some we
know about some we don't know about but
as a matter of course so we don't do it
in secret so Kissinger's trajectory from
Cambodia from being the the architect of
the secret campaign to bomb a country
the United States wasn't at war with to
the state we are in now governed by a
national security state is is is what I
think is most instructive about
Kissinger's life and most important
about him other than
describing him as a war criminal witch
which he is
and Greg why do you think that he
remains such a significant figure uh as
you mentioned he escaped all of the the
scandal of the Nixon years and went on
to be a a highly influential figure not
only in the actual political world but
obviously uh in in the media as well he
was always referred almost by the
corporate press as a revered figure in
American foreign policy and National
Security
yeah the Press loved him and he was very
good at playing the Press especially uh
he was very good at uh at weathering
Watergate his fingers were all over he
he basically pushed Nixon to set up the
plumbers because he was obsessed that
Daniel Ellsberg who released the
Pentagon papers had information about
Cambodia Cambodia Cambodia threads
through all of this
um and and Kissinger was instrumental in
in pushing Nixon to set up the covert
operation that that went into Ellsberg
psychiatrist office and went into it and
went into the Watergate Hotel because he
was he wanted he wanted he wanted to
basically take down ellsbergen and
kissing to survived that basically
because he wasn't he wasn't he didn't
seem like the thugs that Nixon had
around him or you know hold them in and
I like men with the the prussians they
were called and and and and
um and the Press really kind of fell for
the gravitas that he projected and they
were looking for somebody that that they
could trust that they can they can hang
something on and and still have faith in
in the national uh in in in in in the
institution of the presidency executive
branch and Kissinger was very attuned to
this he played people like Ted Koppel
very well
um and then and then what's interesting
about Kissinger though more than
anything we know about is eight years in
office he was National Security director
and Secretary of State uh under Nixon
and Ford for a full eight years uh
Secretary of State for the last couple
of those years
um and and we know we have we have
documents we have we have you know
himself has released as has Declassified
he's given his archive to Yale
but it's what what happened after when
he becomes a kind of sage pundit
a bipartisan pundit that Bill Clinton
rehabilitates Kissinger as a way of
giving him a certain seriousness and
foreign policy that as a governor of
Arkansas he didn't have so he
rehabilitates them for the Democratic
party
um and then Kissinger found of course
Kissinger Associates and so he's out of
office now for what for 76 to now is you
know with a half a day 50 years and and
and and and and during that time he had
his assistant Associates has been a kind
of Premier concierge service for the
global Elite it's it's broken it
national Industries in Latin America in
Eastern Europe in Russia uh he's he's a
key player in all of these movements we
have no information about any of that
right and it's arguably more
consequential in some ways I mean Maybe
not maybe I guess I guess the the the
actual war crimes where well when he was
in office for eight years but there is
this there is this black hole of his
role as as as a as a consultant to the
to the to the global Elite during this
very consequential moment in which an
enormous amount of wealth transferred
from from the bottom to the top and and
Kissinger was deeply involved and he
helped broke in Africa for example uh he
told he told Clinton that that Clinton
had
political Capital to do only one of two
things as first Jacob either pass
Hillary Clinton's national health
program or he could push for NAFTA and
he advised him to push for NAFTA and
Clinton did and we got NAFTA and we
didn't get a health care expansion which
I think says a lot about about the the
the post Cold War trajectory of the
United States and how he got I wanted to
go quickly to the 2016 Democratic
presidential debate in Milwaukee when
Senator Bernie Sanders criticized his
opponent Hillary Clinton's relationship
with her fellow former Secretary of
State Henry Kissinger and cited
Kissinger's role in Cambodia
in her book and in this last debate she
talked about getting the approval or the
support or the mentoring
of Henry Kissinger
now I find it rather amazing because I
happen to believe that Henry Kissinger
was one of the most destructive
secretaries of State in the modern
history of this country
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger
is not my friend I will not take advice
from Henry Kissinger and in fact
Kissinger's actions in Cambodia
when the United States bombed that
country overthrew Prince Cena created
the instability for Paul pot in the
comment Rouge to come in who then
butchered some three million innocent
people one of the worst genocides in the
history of the world so Count Me In as
somebody who will not be listening to
Henry Kissinger so that was presidential
candidate Bernie Sanders versus
presidential candidate Hillary Clinton
and then you have the late celebrity
chef Anthony Bourdain who once said once
you've been to Cambodia you'll never
stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to
death with your bare hands you'll never
again be able to open a newspaper and
read about that treacherous
prevaricating murderous scumbag sitting
down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose
or attending some black tie affair for a
new glossy magazine without choking
witness what Henry did in Cambodia the
fruits of his genius for statesmanship
and you'll never under understand why
he's not sitting in the dock at the
Hague next to milosevic now those were
the words of Anthony Bourdain and I want
to get your comment on this Greg and
then Nick turse
yeah well again Cambodia the centrality
of Cambodia in this transition
transitional period of the U.S national
security state and its importance you
know the the the the the human damage
and costs and pain and suffering is is
overwhelming to think about but more
more kind of stepping back and thinking
about its role in in in in the the kind
of
trajectory of U.S power
um one thing we didn't talk about is
Kissinger's role in in the October
surprise of 1968 the New York Times just
ran an article more or less confirming
Reagan's role in in in in the October
surprise regarding the Iranian hostages
but but Kissinger you know Kissinger in
the 1950s and 60s was a Rockefeller
Republican he was he consisted himself
as a liberal Republican and he was
shocked when Nixon got the got the got
the nomination in 1968 he thought his
political career was over but then he
reached out to the Nixon campaign and he
said you know I I got contacts in in in
in in in the Johnson campaign I can let
you know what's going on in with the
with the peace talks in Paris that were
that were hoping to wind down the war
and might have brought human given
Humphrey the presidency and Kissinger
passed on information that the Nixon
campaign then used
Scuttle those talks and and and then
once he was appointed he was awarded he
was awarded with that by being appointed
National Security adviser and then once
he came into the office he had to figure
out a way to restart the peace talks
because because Nixon promised to end
the war so what can you do you just
scuttled the peace talks how do you
restart them well one of the one of the
not the stated justifications but one of
the just one of the reasons why he
started bombing Cambodia and became
obsessed about Cambodia was he was
trying to kind of project a certain kind
of madman Theory to the North Vietnamese
that that the Nixon Administration was
so crazy they would start bombing
Cambodia and maybe this would bring them
back to the negotiating tables of course
it didn't and the war dragged out and
for another another five years for no
reason it could have ended in 1968 it
could have been you know and then and
and millions of lives were lost in
Vietnamese tens of thousands of lives to
the United States all as a result of of
this of this of this moment this first
October surprise in 1968 and again
Cambodia playing a central role in in
that history Nick turse we just have a
minute and we want to give you the last
word after this massive investigation
you've done in documents you've
uncovered and people's voices that
haven't been heard before
yes and I wanted to bring it back to the
Anthony Bourdain quote and and just
offer up one case that I Chronicle and
this is from the U.S records
Americans shot up a village uh with
helicopters using machine gun fire
rockets and then uh South Vietnamese
forces an American officer landed they
began looting this Village an American
officer stole a Suzuki motorbike and
hauled it onto this helicopter
other Americans noticed that there was a
young Cambodian girl maybe five years
old who was shot and bleeding lying on
the ground they wanted to uh to take her
for medical care but the officer who
dragged the motorbike on board said
Negative they were weighed down by the
bike and they had no room
and they left this girl there to die
this happened after Henry Kissinger gave
that order
to anything that flies in anything that
moves so this is Henry Kissinger's
Legacy and this is what Anthony Bourdain
was talking about
intercept reporter Nick turse will link
to your four-part series including the
peace blood on his hands survivors of
Kissinger's secret war in Cambodia
reveal unreported mass killings and we
want to thank Yale University Professor
Greg Grandin author of the book
Kissinger's Shadow will link to your new
article Henry Kissinger or war criminal
still at large at 100. I'm Amy Goodman
